Showing posts with label Milan. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Milan. Show all posts

Monday, November 23, 2009

The Crazy World Of Milan

From Calcio Italia

Carlo Ancelotti has got it easy. While his new team Chelsea stroll past average opposition almost every week, his successor at Milan is having kittens. You can say what you like about Leonardo’s Rossonero regime, but definitely not that it is boring.

Sunday’s rollercoaster display came against in-form Cagliari and the result was in doubt from beginning to end. Ultimately, it took four goals from four different scorers to see off the battling islanders. No wonder the new man on the bench in the San Siro looks a little older every time we see him.

How Carletto must chuckle down at Stamford Bridge if he ever switches on the Serie A highlights. He can lord it over a League where there are teams tactically inept enough to concede nine goals in a single game. Poor Leonardo seems to find himself involved in a knife-edge thriller every week.

Doubts have to remain about the sustainability of this approach. Surely the wheels must eventually fall off the Milan challenge. However, a bit like one of those plate-spinning acts, it is good fun to watch – at least until it all comes crashing down.

Meanwhile, Inter brushed off Bologna on Saturday evening after a Marcelo Zalayeta strike had threatened to spoil their build up to Barcelona on Tuesday. The Nerazzurri remain far and away the most solid team in Italy. The only negative element was a red card for Douglas Maicon which might make them suffer while he is suspended.

Juve kept up their challenge by seeing off Udinese courtesy of Fabio Grosso but it was a workmanlike display. The Bianconeri were never troubled, to be sure, but they rarely produced much attacking flair either. It will not, one suspects, have had Inter quaking in their boots.

Resurgent Roma enjoyed the fruits of a Francesco Totti hat-trick as they saw off revelation side Bari. But Fiorentina were unable to defeat another surprise package – Parma – as they succumbed 3-2 in the Artemio Franchi. The result catapulted Francesco Guidolin’s men into Champions League contention.

At the bottom end of the table the most significant results were wins for Livorno and Atalanta over Genoa and Siena respectively. It allowed them to join Bologna and Lazio on 12 points after the latter played out the only game without goals in the top Division at Napoli.

A quick scan of the standings suggests there has rarely been a more balanced season in Serie A – at least if you clip Inter off the top. You can argue about the quality of play but not the openness of all the major issues, bar the Scudetto. And, you never know, a steady Juve and this madcap Milan might yet have something to say about that.

Monday, September 28, 2009

The Sick Men of Europe

If ever you needed a feeling of impending doom, then our European candidates provided it at the weekend. Of all seven Italian sides involved in the Champions and Europa Leagues, just one of them recorded a victory. And that was courtesy of a Stevan Jovetic penalty.

You could argue, I guess, that what is Europe’s loss is Serie A’s gain. The top of the table has an interesting look with Samp sitting pretty, Fiorentina and Udinese in the hunt and Inter and Juve already losing precious points. But while the domestic battle is entertaining, the omens for continental conflict are decidedly grim.

Certainly, there was no shame in Jose Mourinho’s men losing by a single strike to Samp (Vai Pazzo!). They tried their hardest to get back on level terms but could not muster a goal. However, having quietly accepted a draw in their opening clash with Barcelona, surely nothing more than a win will do this week. Rubin Kazan might sound more like the magic words of a sorcerer than a football team but they would love to make Inter’s Champions League dreams disappear.

Our other two “big guns”, Juve and Milan, were both held at home by the BB gunners – Bologna and Bari. I tend to think Juve’s result was the more disappointing, only because the Bianconeri have shown more promise this term. It was very unlike them to throw away a lead and an away trip to Bayern is never a simple prospect. The least said about the Rossoneri, the better. I like little Bari’s attitude – with pace and flair on the break – but they should have been no match for Leonardo’s men. Even Zurich must think a trip to the San Siro is not as daunting as it once was.

The only weekend winners were Fiorentina – courtesy of the talismanic Jojo. They were far from impressive against Livorno while their Tuesday night opponents, Liverpool, were dishing out a summary thrashing. Mind you, as my father pointed out, it was only against Hull.

In the Europa League corner, Roma left it late to salvage a draw with Catania. Lazio could do no better than a share of the spoils at home to Palermo and Genoa slumped to defeat against in-form Udinese. Our capital teams both face sides from Sofia this week and must get back to winning ways. The Grifone, I suspect, would be happy with a draw away to Valencia.

It does not look good, I admit. But hope still springs from somewhere in my soul. Every so often Italian football produces the goods in adversity. I hope this turns out to be one of those weeks.

Tuesday, September 15, 2009

Dead and buried?

It's the first real chance to take the temperature of Italian football in a European context. Many have been rushing to pronounce the patient dead already. Over the next three nights we will get a better diagnosis.

The departures of Ibra and Kaka have been cited as symptoms of our illness. Well, the Swede-you-would-most-like-to-slap is coming back to the San Siro - all attitude and arrogance. The rest of Italy's Champions League contenders will go up against the best that France has to offer.

I fear for Milan and Fiorentina, I am hopeful for Inter and optimistic for Juve. They could all deliver a real tonic for Serie A if they manage to grab any kind of positive result. Then we will get an indication of our strength in depth when the Europa League takes centre stage.

By late Thursday night we will have the readings from the heart monitor. Is Italian football's decline terminal or is it responding to treatment?

ROUND ONE: He may be old but Super Pippo still knows where the goal is. His second strike was pure class to defeat Marseille. Juve got a draw which was probably fair on balance of play - but annoying after taking the lead.

ROUND TWO: Inter content with a draw, I reckon, typical Jose Mourinho approach - happy to hold Barca at bay. Still seething about Fiorentina. With 11 men against 11, we produced a very efficient display - better than last year's 2-2. Gila sending off compromised the whole night. Still, take it on the chin and move on.

ROUND THREE: Maybe the worst night of all. Genoa record a handsome win but Roma and Lazio lose to the might of Switzerland and Austria. Deary me...

Monday, September 14, 2009

Harbour hopes

It was Genoa's weekend, no doubt about that, and not just the Rossoblu half of the port city. With Sampdoria also recording a third victory out of three the two teams from the Stadio Luigi Ferraris top the Serie A table. Along with Juventus, of course.

The Doriani had to sweat for their victory - Gigi Del Neri admitted they were fortunate to beat his old team Atalanta. And, although, the scoreline suggests otherwise, Genoa had to work hard against Napoli. They went behind to a Marek Hamsik beauty when down to ten men. But, luckily for them, referee Tagliavento decided to even things up by sending off Campagnaro and giving them a penalty. At ten versus ten, they upped the tempo and a beauty from Giandomenico Mesto swung the game in their favour. Hernan Crespo and another penalty completed the destruction. The man in black got pretty much every major decision wrong, harming both teams in the process.

On Saturday, the Bianconeri saw off Lazio thanks to goals from Caceres and Trezeguet (with a little help from Muslera). If I was a Laziale, I would not despair, the team played OK. It was a tough encounter with plenty of bookings but Juve simply had more hunger for the win. The signs are good for Ciro Ferrara.

Elsewhere, it was Gila goal to the rescue for Fiorentina against a stuffy Cagliari side (half the team they were last season). Milan struggled to a drab draw with Livorno, Tony Christmas smashed a hat-trick to give Udinese a first win and Roma got their first points with a come-from-behind win over Siena to give Claudio Ranieri a triumphant debut.

Oh, and I almost forgot, Samuel Eto'o struck a sublime goal to help Inter see off a resilient Parma outfit. He will hope to reproduce the same when Barcelona come calling later in the week.

Monday, August 31, 2009

Tripping off the tongue

It was, to be fair, a UK commentator's nightmare. Paolo De Ceglie coming off to be replaced by Nicola Legrottaglie. Thanks to ESPN, it came out something like Dee Chiggly making way for Lee Grott Aggily.

This has been one of the highlights (or lowlights) of the return of Serie A to British screens. Chiellini becomes Chee-ell-eeny, Marchisio is Mar-cheesio, Maicon is transformed into May-son, and, most endearingly, Amauri becomes Amore.

So, yes, the song is true. When the ball hits the net, for Juve you can bet - That's Amore!

However, what ESPN has been graced with is some exciting football. Week one gave them the blistering battle between Genoa and Roma. The weekend gone by was not short on drama either.

What to say about Milan's capitulation in the derby? There was the amateur way they had to send Rino Gattuso back out when he was injured and ended up getting him sent off. There was the stubborn refusal to replace Ronaldinho when he was totally out of the play. And then there was the forlorn look of Leonardo like a man drowning.

Yes, he looks good in the white shirt which seems to be de rigeur for Coaches this year. Yes, he is a nice and intelligent guy. Yes, he may make a great manager in time. But, at present anyway, it looks like he has been given an impossible task - rival Inter and Juve without the players needed to do so.

The Bianconeri, for their part, despatched Roma with some style. It has been a bad start in terms of results for the Giallorossi but they will not play Genoa and Juve every week. Ciro Ferrara looks to have a real gem in Diego and Fiorentina fans knew he was getting a good one when he snapped up Felipe Melo.

It has been an exciting start to Serie A but la Nazionale now takes centre stage. An away day in Georgia and home clash with Bulgaria could all but seal a trip to South Africa to defend our World Cup crown.

Friday, August 28, 2009

Euro draw reaction

Remember the days when Milan blasted their way through Europe, gunning down their rivals along the way? Those times may well be long gone but I have used them as a yardstick to assess Italian teams chances of progress in Europe this year. Each side gets an "Arrigo Rating" with a maximum of five awarded to the team most likely to progress.

MILAN - Our only top seed could have landed more comfortably, but their prospects must be reasonable. They face the unknown element of the Galacticos and old boy Ricky Kaka at Real Madrid. They could be brilliant but, I suspect, they might be rusty in the opening rounds. The other teams are Ligue 1 runners-up Marseille and Swiss side Zurich - both of whom should be beatable either home or away. Rinaldi's rating - Three Arrigos.

INTER - Our top dogs only merited second seeding and paid the price by landing champions Barcelona. A first chance to see who got the best out of the Ibra-Eto'o deal. Dynamo Kiev and Rubin Kazan make up the numbers, surely able to be swept aside by Mourinho's men. Rinaldi's rating - Four Arrigos.

JUVENTUS - Potentially got the kindest draw with the weakest top seed in the form of Bayern Munich. Bordeaux are French champions with old acquaintance of Serie A Yoann Gourcuff in top form. Maccabi Haifa should be a tricky away trip and no more. Rinaldi's rating - Four Arrigos.

FIORENTINA - Always likely to face the toughest task and no doubt it ended up that way. Liverpool and Lyon have an impressive track record in the Champions League in recent years. However, they do have the comfort of little Debreceni as their last opponents. Rinaldi's rating - Two Arrigos.

In the EUROPA league the draw has also been made too. Roma get to take on the English with Fulham in their group along with CSKA Sofia and Basel. Got to fancy their chances (Five Arrigos). Lazio meet Villareal, Levski Sofia and Salzburg (Four Arrigos) . While Genoa are in the hunt along with Valencia, Lille and Slavia Prague (Three Arrigos if they use their full team).

Friday, August 21, 2009

Let the games commence...

Ah, it has been a long summer. Too long. There has been the Ashes, I suppose. And there was that thrilling finale to the British Open with the elderly Tom Watson so cruelly denied. But - just the same - give me this Sunday my Serie A.

In fact, things start on Saturday. Fiorentina head to Bologna to try to pick up their form after a shaky display but good result at Sporting Lisbon. Later in the day we get a chance to see how the new Milan is shaping up. They face a tricky wee trip to Siena. This is the post-Maldini, Kaka and Ancelotti era. It hasn't looked great so far but the crunch comes with competitive matches.

Reigning champs Inter have a pretty straightforward looking debut at home to Bari on Sunday. Pick of the days fixtures are last year's revelations Genoa at home to last year's disasters Roma and a potentially red-hot Palermo v Napoli match. Should be plenty to debate following those matches.

It is also the dawn of a new era for UK-based Calcio fans. We get ESPN covering Serie A for the first time this weekend. Initial signs look quite good. I enjoyed their coverage of the Scottish Premier League clash between Dundee Utd and Hearts the other night. Here's hoping they get some cracking matches to get the ball rolling.

Monday, March 16, 2009

All hail Super Pippo

From Calcio Italia

If they ever make a patron saint of the flukey goal, they should call him San Filippo. If there is an art form in scoring with every part of the anatomy imaginable then he is its Leonardo. Love him or loathe him, you can’t ignore the 300 goals of Pippo Inzaghi.


It has been an amazing career for a man who has had many more lives than your average cat. His facial contortions as he takes a tumble in the penalty box have become the stuff of legend. And his ability to be in the right place at the right time is so uncanny that even experts in the paranormal are lost for an explanation.


It is a common insult of the school playground to dub someone a goal poacher. It implies a certain lack of effort in all other departments of the game other than popping up to tap the ball into the net. Inzaghi has taken it to a whole new level.


Yet there has to be more to his game than that surely? He scored the goals that gained Milan revenge over Liverpool in the Champions League Final. He is a bona fide World Cup winner. Your praise might be grudging, but it is nonetheless something he deserves. Inzaghi springs the offside trap like a master locksmith.


And, for a man with such a fragile frame, he shields the ball with the strength of Hulk Hogan. His precision in front of goal is football’s equivalent of keyhole surgery. Finally, of course, his ability to win vital penalties and free-kicks is totally priceless.


In many ways, Super Pippo is a symbol of Italian football. Disliked, reviled and generally belittled across Europe, he gets the job done. After all, he has got the trophies and the goals to prove it.

Tuesday, January 20, 2009

The Lord spoke to Kaka

On the third day, the Lord spoke to Kaka. He saw his child was troubled, there had been much wailing and gnashing of teeth. He asked his son what it was that tormented him so.

Kaka explained his predicament, how he knew the difficulty of the rich man gaining access to heaven. How he feared that taking such a sum of money would constitute a sin. How he was unhappy to turn his back on his long-time friends.

The Lord considered all of this. He spent 40 days and 40 nights in the desert before returning to his troubled child. He handed him a tablet of stone with a simple message of what he had to do.

"Manchester City," it said. "Thou art having a laugh..."

Wednesday, July 16, 2008

Who signed Roger Rabbit?

Everyone is agreed, Milan needed to make some moves this summer. Their team looked jaded and struggled to compete last year. But, what on earth possessed them to splash out on the over-necklaced Ronaldinho?

I may be proved wrong, he may become a Rossonero legend - but I doubt it. Surely his day is done.

The only redeeming feature of the move is at least it shows Milan remain more appealing than Manchester City. It really would have been one in the eye for Serie A if he had snubbed the multi-Champions League winners for the City of Manchester stadium.

Reading between the lines this seems more like a media move than one designed to boost the team. Of course, at his best, he would be a quality addition. But even at his worst, he will shift a lot of season tickets and merchandise. It seems to have been done more to appease the fans than with any real vision of beefing up the Milan side.

Maybe I've just spent too long listening to people bore me about how great he was when he played for Barcelona. We'll see if he gets the same rave reviews now he has crossed the great divide from La Liga to Serie A.

Wednesday, March 05, 2008

Addio campioni!

They tried to resist the forces of nature but, in the end, Milan succumbed to Arsenal in the Champions League last 16 on Tuesday night. In the end, disappointed as you might be, the better team over the two legs went through.

The Rossoneri had their chances in the San Siro but it was a bad time for Ricky Kaka to have an off night. Andrea Pirlo was also ensnared well by the Gunners midfield which left the playmaking role all too often in the hands of Rino Gattuso and Massimo Ambrosini. How we wished the warmly-wrapped Clarence Seedorf could have come down from the stands and played his part.

Now is a time for stock-taking in Milan. The team needs an overhaul - maybe not as drastic as some people suggest - but an overhaul nonetheless. A striking target man would be useful, another creative midfielder to take pressure off Pirlo and - toughest of all - a replacement for Paolo Maldini.

You have to wonder if it might be the end of Carlo Ancelotti too. Not that he has done badly but failure to get to the last eight will be seen as disaster. If the Rossoneri should finish outside the top four that would be unforgivable. Do you think Mr Mourinho will have his phone switched on?

Thursday, February 14, 2008

Torna presto Ronie!

I know, I know that I have poked fun at him in the past. I think I called him the "Lord of the Pies" and I definitely joked that he could no longer jump off the ground. However, I would not have wished a career-ending injury on Ronaldo.

It looks like the end of the road after he collapsed in a heap against Livorno on Wednesday night. I know he fought back before but I really wonder if he can manage it again. It is a big blow to Milan who - while they have Pato and Paloschi for the future - could have done with his experience in the big games to come.

Perhaps I am wrong and he can defy the odds and come back again. However, when a player has suffered as many serious injuries as he has, it is hard to believe he can really be a force to be reckoned with ever again.

Monday, February 04, 2008

You know when you've been Pato-ed!

What did I say about playing badly but winning? Me and my big mouth. On Sunday night Fiorentina played one of their best games of recent times and, guess what? They got beat.

Little Pato came off the bench, scored the winner, then hobbled off injured. It would be fair to say few Stranieri have had a bigger impact in a shorter period of time in Serie A. If he keeps going like this he could be amazing.

The game itself started magnificently and then fizzled out. But in the second half it was the Viola who gave everything for the win. However, if you don't put the ball in the net, etc. They were punished by Pato just as they ran out of steam. Also, Kalac was in impressive form - I think it could be a long time until we see Dida back between the sticks.

Elsewhere, what to say about the penalty Inter got against Empoli? If it had been given to Juve we would never have heard the end of it. OK, the Nerazzurri might have won anyway but it did give them a hell of a hand - until Empoli missed their consolation spot-kick.

Thursday, January 17, 2008

Spookily similar

It was bugging me all through the Milan v Napoli game the other night. I knew that the new wonder kid Pato reminded me of someone but I could not think who.

I had this feeling that he looked a bit like some US college kid in his freshman year. Wide-eyed and full of wonder at everything he sees.

It was only thanks to a chat with the legendary Venezian that all the pieces fell into place. Of course, for anyone who remembers the classic dorm-based comedy "Saved By The Bell" it was obvious. Pato is the reincarnation of Screech - otherwise known as Dustin Diamond.

I now look forward to all his great comedy sketches as well as more goals for Milan.

Monday, December 17, 2007

A grand derby in store

With Milan winning the World Club thingy at the weekend and Inter blasting all before them in Serie A what a cracking game we are promised on Sunday afternoon.

In the red-and-black corner the reigning European, World and Intergalactic champions. In the blue-and-black, those "Martian" champions of Italy. The Rossoneri might be a bit jet-lagged but it should still be a classic encounter. It is one which Ancelotti's men have to win if they harbour any hopes of an improbable comeback in Serie A.

Can Milan seriously trouble Mancini's masterful side? It really depends how committed they are to the game. On their day they are as good as anyone but how much is their heart in the fight for the Scudetto? I guess we will find out at the weekend.

Inter had their traditional stroll past Cagliari at the weekend. They were made to work hard in the first half but once they got ahead it was easy going. Elsewhere, Alex Del P impressed with a couple of breakaway goals which showed an old cynic like me that he might still have some life left in him. And Udinese lost which helps boost Fiorentina's chances of getting into the Champions League.

Tuesday, November 06, 2007

Win it for Liedholm

I am a bit behind the times but have only just caught up with the news that Milan legend Nils Liedholm has passed away at the age of 85. I am not old enough to have seen him play but I remember him as manager of Roma and his name was always linked with one of the great Rossonero sides.

My favourite story about the Barone - indeed, probably my only story about him - is how his first incomplete pass was greeted at the San Siro. The fans are supposed to have applauded such was their amazement at seeing one of his passes go astray.

So the current team owe it to his memory to go out and thrash Shakthar Donetsk tonight. And Roma owe it to him to go out and perform similar heroics when they face Sporting Lisbon tomorrow. Remember, he will be watching in judgment.

Addio, Barone.

Thursday, October 04, 2007

Dumdum Dida in the Doo Doo

It seems that no night for Milan in the Champions League can end without the talk gravitating towards their Brazilian goalkeeper. Once again, he was the centre of attention in Wednesday night's defeat at Celtic Park.

The facts, as they appeared to me, were as follows.

1) A fan got onto the pitch (Celtic will be heavily fined for that).

2) The fan struck Dida (Again, Celtic will be fined even more heavily, maybe a game behind closed doors).

3) Dida set off in chase of the wee Glaswegian but then decided to fall in a heap on the floor as if felled by Mike Tyson.

I was glad to see that Milan as a club quickly disassociated themselves from any thoughts of appealing over this incident - it was simply too comical. However, it does raise further concerns about the big Brazilian. His performances have been so shaky and this is the latest sign of his growing frailty. With all their money, could the European Champions not find anyone better?

On the other front, good game by Lazio. I did not expect them to get anything out of Real Madrid and they remain in with a shout of qualification.

Tuesday, October 02, 2007

Not this time, please

Having watched Roma commit footballing suicide against Inter at the weekend, it brought back nasty memories of the Champions League last year and THAT visit to Old Trafford. The Giallorossi go back again tonight. Please, boys, keep the head and don't make us a laughing stock like the last time.

On the other front, Celtic host Milan once again. Clearly, the Hoops will hope to meet the Rossoneri on the form they have been showing in Serie A - lacklustre, rarely victorious and without much luck. However, Carlo Ancelotti's men were devastating in their only other group game against Benfica. Which Milan will turn up? Only time will tell...

Thursday, August 23, 2007

That's the look...

Ok, we know not to get worried about Italy's first friendly of the season by now. The lack of motivation and preparation mean we never play well. Think Lippi against Iceland and the likes.

Just the same, there was some reason to be concerned about the display against Hungary on Wednesday night and not just the 3-1 scoreline. And I am not talking about the way some of our big name players performed.

I have tried to illustrate the problem (left) but I don't know if I have done it justice. It is not Donadoni himself but the look on his face for much of the second half. Understandably he was filled with despair but - surely - he should not transmit it to his players.

I don't think you would ever see Lippi, Capello, Ferguson or Mourinho looking so downhearted on the bench. Inside, yes, they might be dying but on the outside they would look cool and collected. Or, possibly, they would have the kind of grimace which says: "wait until I get you shower back in the dressing room!"

Instead, Donadoni looked lost, his eyes glazed over and just hoping to avoid a heavier defeat. I am not of the "Dona must go" gang but he does need to turn things around quickly to avoid embarrassment against France in a couple of weeks time...

***********************************

Elsewhere, my personal countdown to the Serie A season continues with a look at the Roman and Milanese sides.

Inter: Although the pre-season signals have not been at all impressive (Man Utd game apart) I still think they set the standards to beat. The addition of Suazo gives them the power and pace Adriano was supposed to. It will take another year for the advantage they got out of Calciopoli to fully unwind. Rinaldi's forecast: 1st.

Milan: They have been quiet on the transfer market but the addition of Pato (later this year) was an eye-catching one. They also have a squad which continues to improve with age. I expect a big season from Gourcuff and, possibly, Ronaldo now that they have isolated his "tubby gland". Still, I reckon they might miss out on the top prize. Rinaldi's forecast: 2nd.

Roma: Last season they fizzled out trying to fight on both fronts but, despite the loss of Chivu, they look better this season. New boy Ludovic Giuly is perfect for their game and if they have signed Cicinho that plugs another gap in the squad. I would like to think they could make a serious Scudetto challenge but it is always hard against the boys from the north. Rinaldi's forecast: 3rd.

Lazio: I believe they over-achieved last season and have not strengthened significantly during the summer. There is no doubt Delio Rossi is brilliant at getting the best out of the resources at his disposal but - if they get through - the demands of Champions League and Serie A may be too much. Rinaldi's forecast: 7th.

Wednesday, May 23, 2007

The perfect moment

It wasn't beautiful but, be honest, we didn't really want that. Milan were beautiful in Istanbul and look where it got them. This time around it was enough just to win, it didn't matter how. And who better when that is called for than Pippo Inzaghi?

The game set out on a course that was worryingly familiar and seemed to be going to Liverpool's plan. Once again, without creating a lot themselves, they were able to smother the creative players in the Rossonero side and make them rush their passes and lose the ball with alarming regularity. It seemed that Carlo Ancelotti's men could not break free.

But, of course, we hadn't counted on that man Super Pippo. A ricochet off his shoulder (is there any part of his anatomy he hasn't scored with?) and the game changed direction. Liverpool were unable this time to raise a grandstand reaction and instead continued with their aggressive but ultimately toothless play. It was crying out for that man to put the game out of reach. When he did, it was in greater style.

A neat through ball from Kaka, the offside trap beaten and Reina rounded. The ball seemed to take an age to trundle across the line but the job, we thought, was done. There was the worry of a late Kuyt goal (offside, anyone?) but this time it didn't matter. The cup was rightfully Milan's. Seven times champions and a fitting coronation for Paolo Maldini.

The night in Athens joins a string of Rossonero legendary games. Sure, it was an ugly victory. But that doesn't mean we have to love it any less...